The One-Step Alignment Rule

[Wids]

So the one-step Alignment rule has long been established for Clerics. But would it also apply to Druids, Paladins and Blackguards?

In a tabletop D&D 3rd campaign years ago, I was allowed to play a Paladin of Wee Jas. In the mainstream D&D 3 pantheon, Wee Jas is the Lawful Neutral goddess of death and magic, a pretty far cry from conventional paladin gods like Heironeous and St. Cuthbert. So the one-step rule was applied to paladins so that Wee Jas could have paladins. My paladin was accordingly different from the stereotypical "white knight" paladin: He was a gravedigger (and, later, a mortician) in his day job, he knew about a dozen different funeral rites (and could even conduct dwarven and elven funerals passably), he wore black and gray, he was armed with a scythe (a very non-paladin-ish weapon) and you'd never know that he was a paladin just by looking at him. His paladin vows and code of honor were a bit different, too; he couldn't leave any dead person--not even the enemies he slew--uninterred for longer than three days, and he couldn't Turn or otherwise harm any undead who weren't imperiling the living. After all, Wee Jas has undead servants too.

On the other extreme was the Wizard/Blackguard that I used to play on NWN's Castlevania: Vampire's Kiss server. C:VK was set in 18th-Century Wallachia--as you might expect from anything related to the Castlevania universe--and it used the Judeo-Christian pantheon (saints, archangels and archdemons included). My blackguard was an Austrian prostitute descended from a Teutonic Knight who had been tortured and executed by the Church under charges of Satanism and heresy, so naturally she was taken in by a Luciferian cult and became a disciple of Lilith, the legendary mother of all lilim and succubi. We never figured out if Lilith was Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil, so my Chaotic Evil blackguard was either one step away from Lilith's Alignment or she wasn't.

And, of course, being what she was--and her infernal matron being what she was, my blackguard was a pretty far cry from the "medieval Darth Vader" blackguard stereotype:

She fought with a fiery, demonic whip, of course. It wasn't quite the "Anti-Vampire Killer" of the server, but my blackguard--with 12 Levels of Wizard under her scanty black leather belt--took advantage of the server's enchanting system to make it a very nasty weapon indeed.

So, back to the topic: How well does the one-step rule generally apply to divinely powered classes besides Clerics?

Blackguards have thrice more latitude with their ethical Alignments than paladins do, so they get to be even more varied. I think I've already talked about how remarkably different a Blackguard of Umberlee would be from the Darth-Vader-in-full-plate stereotype, but what about the blackguards of such unconventional deities as Talona, Mask, Malar, Auril, Loviatar, Beshaba, Diirinka and Yurtrus? The Darth Vader stereotype which applies so well to blackguards of Bane, Cyric and possibly Shar surely wouldn't apply to them too, so what would they be like?

And if morally Neutral deities (such as Kossuth, Gond and Kelemvor) can have paladins and blackguards, what would those be like?

And what about Druids and the deities sitting on the four corners of the Alignment spectrum? A conciliatory conversation between Quinn and Serrica got me to wondering about a Chaotic Evil deity like Umberlee having Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil druids revering her as a force of nature. Would a druid following Talona see poison and disease as natural, acceptable means of culling the weak and enforcing the natural order? And how could a druid reconcile a deity like Gond with druidic beliefs and practices?

We need more forum activity, so discuss freely.

[chaotene]

I've always been a fan of non-stereotypical alignments. I've two examples of characters I have played in my day. It's not quite the same as what Wids is talking about, but hey, it's discussion, nu?

There was a Paladin who was just the Paladin Without a Name. Lawful Good, but totally anti-social. Interacted with people only when necessary. His entire existence was devoted to his deity. His life was one of suffering and extreme sacrifice to the point of being shunned by everyone and anyone. Oh, and he was also stark raving mad. Muttered to himself, didn't bath or clean his armor, smelled horrible. He was lightning struck and his mind was closer to his deity than the world around him.

Totally NOT the Sir Lancelot, gleaming armor, saving the fair maiden type. He would save maidens, of course, but never got kissed as a result.

The other example is one I'm playing on another server. Black Maggie McGee - barmaid by trade, rouge by training. Nice, friendly and flirty. A good neighbor, helps out in her community. Well liked and likable. Also Neutral Evil.

She is a serial killer, loves to break into peoples homes, drain them of blood, and do things with their internal organs. Doesn't dress evil, look evil, act evil, except when she is playing with her playmates.

Now, to bring it to Wid's topic at hand. The Paladin Without a Name does not worship a lawful deity. I don't recall who it was, if I ever actually gave name to it, but not lawful. The impositions that he put on himself came from his own mind, not from his god. He lived a life of absolute devotion and focus, at the extent of all else.

And Maggie, she worships the deities of the city, same as everyone else. Goes to Temple, gives her offerings and such. Then, perhaps, slaughters someone in the middle of the night. Hers is a jump of more than one step most likely, as she would worship neutral to good gods. And does she mean it when she worships them? Of course, same as any serial killer. She believes it all, just doesn't think it totally applies to her (sociopath behavior).

Just some thoughts.

[Wids]

Cyric would be pleased with Black Maggie McGee's deeds. If he were a Forgotten Realms deity, Erythnul might dig her too.

As far as praying to or worshiping gods of greatly different Alignments, pretty much everyone can do that. The Classes which hinge on faith or religion must devote themselves to a certain deity (while complying with the one-step rule), but that doesn't stop the character from giving props to other gods (though giving props to gods who are enemies of the character's patron god might not go over well). An interrogator running the torture chamber for the city watch might give his tithes and his foremost fealty to Tyr, but nothing--not even Tyr himself--would stop him from walking down to one of Loviatar's shrines and lighting one of her candles while praying along the lines of "Thanks for helping me break that murderous madman, Painmaiden. Now we know where he buried all of his victims."

And of course, Umberlee's shrines, temples and clerics are tolerated--if not welcomed--in most port towns, no matter how Lawful or how Good those towns may be. Any port can be ruined by typhoons and hurricanes, and any ship can be sunken by giant whirlpools and sea monsters. So Umberlee gets prayers and props from practically every seafarer, even if most of those prayers go something like "We're heading out to sea now, here's some gold, we respect your power, please don't kill us." The guys who take stock in Valkur or Selûne might say "LOL Umberlee whateva," but the rest of the sailors might not be so willing to roll the dice every time they weigh anchor.

Even our own ancient Egypt was like that. The Pharaoh was commanding everyone to be Lawful Good, and the temples of gods like Horus and Amon-Ra were commanding everyone to be Lawful Good, but scads of those Egyptian cities and towns also had temples to their God of Evil, Set. And Set's temples tended to be pretty prosperous and popular. Nobody really liked Set, not even his own priests. But they all reasoned, "Hey...maybe if we bribe Set with enough gold and kiss his butt till it shines, he'll leave us alone."

When you're a polytheist in a polytheistic society, you can do that. Those religions which try to be monotheistic and have First Commandments to forbid that kind of activity are actually among the minority of religions worldwide. Churches built around monotheistic religions really like having the market cornered on tithes, after all. No one's giving any money--for bribes or otherwise--to any Church of Lucifer while the tithe-fattened folks at the Vatican have a say about it.

[Wids]

Ooh, I just remembered something that we had talked about here!

The Red Knight is a Lawful Neutral deity (and screw you too, 4th Edition!). And if you check out the Strategic Charge spell that's specific to her, it specifies that it's only available to Paladins and Blackguards who serve the Red Knight.

Paladins may only be Lawful Good, and Blackguards can only be Evil. I don't see anything which says that a Blackguard of the Red Knight is restricted to the Lawful Evil alignment, but if we're applying the one-step rule for Paladins and Blackguards, Lawful Evil would be the only Evil alignment that makes sense. It also makes sense when considering that the Red Knight and any tactician under her can be expected to be disciplined, regimented, deliberate and honorable to some degree, traits which the Lawful alignments embody far better than any other.

How does that sound?

Of course, it also begs the question: What if a Paladin of the Red Knight bumped into a Blackguard of the Red Knight? Would they regard each other as comrades or enemies?

[minion]

hmm... not sure where to jump in, so... i'll just throw stuff out as it strikes me.

first and foremost, as i'm sure you're aware, the one-step rule is technically just for clerics, though functionally it essentially also applies to paladins in reverse in FR (as they are allowed to have only LG, LN, or NG patrons, with the exception of Sune, if i remember correctly). second, and this answers your question of why there are no true neutral clerics of Luthic: 3.x D&D requires that clerics of a god/dess that has a Good or Evil alignment share that alignment (or, at least, this is the interpretation i have always seen of the alignment entry for clerics in 3.x D&D). so, functionally, there are no moral-axis neutrals among clerics of good or evil gods, only among the churches of gods whose moral axis is neutral. (i don't necessarily agree with this, precisely because of situations like neutral priestesses of Luthic, which make plenty of sense, but... them's the rules unless Lucky says otherwise, and it does make sense in many, if not most, cases, ex: Cyric, Lathander, Bane, Tyr, etc.)

now, regarding the paladin and blackguard of the Red Knight: first, regardless of the technical requirements of the blackguard class, i would be disappointed in a non-Lawful character who received divine spells due to a class that claimed the Red Knight as patron, precisely for the reasons you outlined. and as to whether they would be comrade or enemy: dependent on situation. likely they would be neither under most circumstances, be comrades when drawn together for most anything relating to their religious ties, and be enemies if they met each other on a field of battle.

remember that you don't need to guess about much that relates to clerics, as most of it is layed out here: pirateisles.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=rulesandgoals&action=display&thread=10

ahh... you remind me that i have yet to make a priest of Yurtrus here as well... so many interesting PCs, so little time...

as for non-stereotypical blackguard patrons: i enjoy bending and twisting tired PC stereotypes (within what i consider plausible limits, of course), and enjoy seeing "unusual" versions of any class. i also firmly believe in multiclassing as a way to represent broad/diverse talents/interests (which many, if not most, adventurers typically have, or try to have), but i usually find myself in the minority there.

remember that there are existing orders within the churches of many (though obviously not all) deities in FR. these often give you an idea of how to play a paladin (or monk, or cleric, etc) of a deity who may not always care as much about justice and righteousness as the paladin him/herself does.

while their rules do not apply here (obviously), the FRC (Forgotten Realms Cormyr) forum is a good source of campaign-setting-specific info (particularly as the wiki gets choked with 4th/5th/Xth edition crap), or at least a good place to start: frc.proboards.com

if any of this makes little sense... bear in mind it is late and i've been keeping weird hours of late. bloody tests for two weeks straight is giving me a bad case of senioritis (which is particularly bad as i'm nowhere near a senior), so i've been vacillating between "study my butt off" mode and "not for the 4th day straight" mode.

[828stingstingneo]

Apr 13, 2012 21:07:57 GMT -5 Wids said:

And what about Druids and the deities sitting on the four corners of the Alignment spectrum? A conciliatory conversation between Quinn and Serrica got me to wondering about a Chaotic Evil deity like Umberlee having Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil druids revering her as a force of nature. Would a druid following Talona see poison and disease as natural, acceptable means of culling the weak and enforcing the natural order? And how could a druid reconcile a deity like Gond with druidic beliefs and practices?

Ooh, I know this one! I wanted my first NWN druid to be a druid of Gond, a crafter who only uses things she makes herself and specializes in making things from natural materials, no metal armor or weapons. In that process, I discovered that Gond can't have druids. Only nature deities may. I'm pretty sure there's a list somewhere of who is a nature deity or not. If I recall correctly Talona and Umberlee are on this list. So, I would agree that druids of Talona do see poison and disease in that manner, and druids of Umberlee would be very weather and sea creature focused.

Apr 14, 2012 10:37:23 GMT -5 chaotene said:

The other example is one I'm playing on another server. Black Maggie McGee - barmaid by trade, rouge by training. Nice, friendly and flirty. A good neighbor, helps out in her community. Well liked and likable. Also Neutral Evil.

She is a serial killer, loves to break into peoples homes, drain them of blood, and do things with their internal organs. Doesn't dress evil, look evil, act evil, except when she is playing with her playmates.

We need a Black Maggie McGee on Pirate Isles.

[chaotene]

Mystra is an interesting case study in this as well as she has clerics that that can be NG like her and anything pretty much from LE to CG - just not LG or CE it seems.

I'm sure they have some very interesting national conventions.